{"id":15665,"date":"2011-11-02T15:00:29","date_gmt":"2011-11-02T19:00:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/?p=15665"},"modified":"2011-11-02T16:22:21","modified_gmt":"2011-11-02T20:22:21","slug":"listening","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2011\/11\/02\/listening\/","title":{"rendered":"listening&#8230;"},"content":{"rendered":"<br \/>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.psychologytoday.com\/blog\/dsm5-in-distress\/201111\/dsm-5-against-everyone-else\" target=\"_blank\"><u><strong><font color=\"#200020\">DSM 5 Against Everyone Else<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a><br \/>                   <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Its Research Types Just Don&#8217;t Understand The Clinical World<\/font><\/strong><br \/>                   <strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">DSM5 in Distress: Psychology Today<\/font><\/strong><br \/>                   by Allen J. Frances, M.D.<br \/>                   November 1, 2011<\/div>\n<p>                  <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup>&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>                    Strikingly,  there seems to be virtually no support for DSM 5 outside the very  narrow circle of the several hundred experts who have created it and the  leadership  of the American Psychiatric Association [APA] which stands to reap  large profits from its publication. There is no group and precious few  individuals outside of APA who have anything good to say about DSM 5.  And even within the DSM 5 work groups and the APA governance structures,  there is widespread discontent with the process and considerable  disagreement about the product&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>                    There is obviously a huge,  growing,  and so far totally unbridgeable gulf between the researchers  who have prepared DSM 5 and the clinicians who will have to use it. The  experts, if they see patients at all, tend to do so only in the ivory  tower of university research clinics. Clinicians have to apply the DSM  under more difficult real life circumstances and often have a much  clearer understanding of how it can be misused &#8211; with loose diagnosis  often leading to excessive use of medication&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>                    <strong><font color=\"#200020\">The experts are well intentioned and are making very  bad decisions for the purest of reasons. Their conflict of interest is  purely intellectual, not financial.<\/font><\/strong> Experts overvalue their pet  diagnoses and their own research &#8211; and greatly underappreciate how an  idea that works well in their own research setting may be disastrously  misunderstood and misused in clinical practice&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>                    If DSM 5 remains at war with its users, it won&#8217;t be  used. Why buy an expensive book if it is likely to be more harmful than  helpful when the official ICD-10-CM codes will be freely available on  the internet. DSM 5&#8242; s stubborn refusal to abandon risky suggestions is a  foolish gamble not only for clinicians and patients, but also with its  own future.<\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">As Dr. Frances continues to wield his well placed hammer, he repeatedly throws in things like, &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">The experts are well intentioned and are making  very  bad decisions for the purest of reasons. Their conflict of  interest is  purely intellectual, not financial<\/font><\/strong>.&quot; I expect that he&#8217;s trying to neutralize the idea in the minds of many that psychiatrists are simply crooks in league with the pharmaceutical industry. That&#8217;s an uphill climb, because we&#8217;ve had more than our share of people who fit the bill, and an even larger number who may not be crooks, but who have been way too close to industry [and well paid for their time]. It is unlikely that his simple declaration will change that perception. So I&#8217;m not sure that <em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">purity<\/font><\/strong><\/em> would be my main metaphor for describing the motives of the neo-framers &#8211; &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">the purest of reasons&quot;<\/font><\/strong> or <strong><font color=\"#200020\">&quot;purely intellectual&quot;<\/font><\/strong>]. <\/div>\n<p> <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\">And another thing, the first paragraph of this article [in <strong><font color=\"#0066ff\"><u>Psychology<\/u> Today<\/font><\/strong>] reads:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup>So far, opposition to DSM 5 has been expressed by the following  organizations:  British <strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">Psychological<\/font><\/strong> Society; American <strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">Counseling<\/font><\/strong>  Association; Society for Humanistic <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychology<\/font><\/strong> [APA Division 32];  Society for <strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">Community Research<\/font><\/strong> and Action: Division of Community <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\"> Psychology<\/font><\/strong> [APA Division 27]; Society for Group <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychology &amp; <span class=\"pt-basics-link\">Psychotherapy<\/span><\/font><\/strong>[ APA Division 49]; Developmental <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychology<\/font><\/strong> [APA Division 7]; UK  Council for <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychotherapy<\/font><\/strong>; Association for Women in <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychology<\/font><\/strong>;   Constructivist <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychology<\/font><\/strong> Network; Society for Descriptive <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychology<\/font><\/strong>;  and the Society of Indian <strong><font color=\"#0066FF\">Psychologists<\/font><\/strong>.<\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">There&#8217;s something of a monotony about these groups who are up in arms about the DSM-5 [and probably its predecessors if the truth were spoken] &#8211; the word <strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">Psychology<\/font><\/strong> [and its near synonyms]. In a later paragraph, Frances adds:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup>The users are more than 500,000 thousand mental heath clinicians [and  probably, on an occasional basis, about an equal number of primary care  physicians]. Of the mental health workers, about 202,000 are social  workers; 120,000 are mental health counselors; 93,000 are psychologists;  75,000 are psychiatric nurses;  55,000 are <span class=\"pt-basics-link\">marriage<\/span>  &amp; family therapists;  38,000 are psychiatrists; and an unknown  additional number are  occupational therapists, educators, experts in  forensics, researchers etc.<\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">And from the leadership of his opposition:<\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\">\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Neuroscience, Clinical Evidence, and the Future of Psychiatric Classification in DSM-5<\/font><\/strong><br \/>                      <sup>by David J. Kupfer, M.D. and  Darrel A. Regier, M.D., M.P.H.<\/sup><br \/>                      <strong><font color=\"#004400\">American Journal of Psychiatry<\/font><\/strong> 2011 168:672-674.<\/div>\n<p align=\"justify\"><sup>In the initial stages of development of the  fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental  Disorders,we expected that some of the limitations of the current  psychiatric diagnostic criteria and taxonomy would be mitigated by the  integration of validators derived from scientific advances in the last  few decades. Throughout the last 25 years of psychiatric research,  findings from genetics, neuroimaging, cognitive science, and  pathophysiology have yielded important insights into diagnosis and  treatment approaches for some debilitating mental disorders, including  depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder.<\/sup><sup> In <strong><em><u>A Research Agenda for DSM-V<\/u><\/em><\/strong>,  we anticipated that these emerging diagnostic and treatment advances  would impact the diagnosis and classification of mental disorders faster  than what has actually occurred&hellip;<\/sup><\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup>The seminal article by Robins and Guze on  diagnostic validity, which proposed a classification of psychiatric  illnesses based not on psychodynamic, a priori hypotheses but rather on  external, empirical indicators, built a direct pathway to DSM-III. Their  proposed classification steps included identifying core clinical  features, conducting differential diagnosis to separate the condition  from similar disorders, gathering laboratory data, assessing temporal  stability of the diagnosis, and determining familial aggregation of the  disorder. The resultant explicit criteria featured in DSM-III and  subsequent editions have significantly improved our understanding of  psychiatric disorders, but they did not come without a price. While  diagnostic reliability has thrived, large-scale epidemiological studies  have underscored the inefficiency of DSM&rsquo;s criteria in accurately  differentiating diagnostic syndromes, especially in community samples.  With reification of the criteria through revised editions of DSM-III-R  and DSM-IV, proliferation of diagnostic comorbidities and overreliance  on the &quot;not otherwise specified&quot; category have continued&hellip;<\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\">While I don&#8217;t personally agree with &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">Throughout the last 25 years of psychiatric research,  findings  from genetics, neuroimaging, cognitive science, and  pathophysiology  have yielded important insights into diagnosis and  treatment approaches  for some debilitating mental disorders, including  depression,  schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder<\/font><\/strong>&quot; and think they&#8217;re closer to the mark with, &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">&#8230; we anticipated that these emerging diagnostic and treatment advances   would impact the diagnosis and classification of mental disorders faster   than what has actually occurred<\/font><\/strong>,&quot; that&#8217;s not my direction in this particular post. Kupfer and Regier go on to say, &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">The seminal article by Robins and Guze on  diagnostic validity, which  proposed a classification of psychiatric  illnesses based not on  psychodynamic, a priori hypotheses but rather on  external, empirical  indicators, built a direct pathway to DSM-III<\/font><\/strong>&quot; comes closer to the part I want to talk about. Anyone alive during those days knows that the DSM-III essentially ended the influence of the psychoanalysts in the medical specialty of psychiatry. In fact, ending that influence was an active overt and covert goal of the revision. The result was essentially to expel psychoanalysis from psychiatry altogether, and it was successful. As I am both a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst, anything I might say about that would be suspect &#8211; a conflict of interest. And if we&#8217;ve learned anything in these last few decades, just declaring a conflict of interest doesn&#8217;t make it go away. Even I would be suspicious of what I had to say. But I can say some things&nbsp; that I do trust about the consequences of that revision.             <\/div>\n<p align=\"justify\">I agree with the idea of &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">a classification of psychiatric  illnesses based not on  psychodynamic, a priori hypotheses<\/font><\/strong>.&quot; Unfortunately, in the DSM-III, they didn&#8217;t just throw out psychoanalytic theories, they threw out a psychodynamic thread in psychiatry that belonged to psychiatry itself, not psychoanalysis. It was a rich tradition that the analysts certainly influenced, but so did Adolf Meyer, Harry Stack Sullivan and countless others who taught us how to talk with and listen to our patients [no apologies for the influence of the analysts intended]. So, the framers of the DSM-III threw out psychodynamic psychiatry too &#8211; the baby with the bathwater. In fact, they essentially threw out &quot;the mind&quot; altogether. That was a huge mistake &#8211; probably an <span class=\"st\">irredeemable mistake. And they said they created &quot;<\/span><strong><font color=\"#200020\">a classification of psychiatric  illnesses  based not on  psychodynamic, a priori hypotheses but rather on   external, empirical  indicators<\/font><\/strong><span class=\"st\">,&quot; but that&#8217;s not true either. They created a classification based on another &quot;<\/span><strong><font color=\"#200020\">a priori hypotheses<\/font><\/strong><span class=\"st\">,&quot; that all mental illness is biologic. It would&#8217;ve been okay for them to say all mental illness <em>that psychiatrists are going to treat<\/em> is biological. Or it would&#8217;ve been fine for them to say that our classification was only going to include known or suspected biological conditions [it would&#8217;ve been a very small book]. They said neither. They tried to hold on to the whole ball of wax. So they talked &quot;<\/span><strong><font color=\"#200020\">external, empirical  indicators<\/font><\/strong>&quot; but lived biology, and they preached evidence-based medicine but practiced expert opinion  [or at least the <em>opinion of declared experts<\/em>].<\/p>\n<div>Using Dr. Frances&#8217; numbers:<\/div>\n<ul>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">&quot;The users are more than 500,000 thousand mental heath clinicians [and   probably, on an occasional basis, about an equal number of primary care   physicians]&quot; = 500,000 to 1,000,000<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div>&quot;38,000 are psychiatrists&quot; = 38,000<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div>ergo<strong><font color=\"#200020\"> 38,000\/500,000 =<\/font><\/strong> <strong><font color=\"#200020\">7.6%<\/font><\/strong><\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div>ergo <strong><font color=\"#200020\">38,000\/1,000,000 = <\/font><\/strong><strong><font color=\"#200020\">3.8%&nbsp; <\/font><\/strong><\/div>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div align=\"justify\">Do the powers that be in psychiatry really think that the remaining <strong><font color=\"#200020\">92.4%<\/font><\/strong> to <strong><font color=\"#200020\">96.2%<\/font><\/strong> of mental health clinicians are going to continue to use a classification of mental illness that essentially denies the mind, behavior, relationships, or society, and remains rigidly committed to <strong><font color=\"#200020\">biology<\/font><\/strong> clothed in &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">external, emperical indicators<\/font><\/strong>&quot;? Of course they aren&#8217;t. In fact they shouldn&#8217;t. Dr. Frances, a psychiatrist,&nbsp; is trying to tell other psychiatrists something that desperately needs hearing. It reminds me of an elementary school playground joke:<\/div>\n<ul>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em>This guy is standing on the corner clapping.<\/em><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em>Someone asks, &quot;Why are you clapping?&quot;<\/em><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em>He says, &quot;It keeps the elephants away.&quot;<\/em><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em>&quot;But there haven&#8217;t been any elephants around here for thousands of years.&quot;<\/em><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em>He says, &quot;See, it works! Don&#8217;t it?&quot;<\/em>        <\/div>\n<\/ul>\n<div align=\"justify\">They&#8217;re still riding high on expelling the psychoanalysts a quarter of a century ago and phobic about holding their ground &#8211; the line of Robins and Guze. They&#8217;re also in denial that the DSM criteria have been coopted by the pharmaceutical friendlies among them &#8211; particularly in the areas of Depression and matters Bipolar. They seem unaware that the proliferation of <em>silly<\/em> pet disorders looks exactly like what it is &#8211; silly. Their proposed changes in the area of personality diagnosis flies in the face of expert opinion <u>and<\/u> the opinion of declared experts. And so it goes &#8211; the unfounded biases towards universal biology, the creation of silly disorders, the failure to resolve the problems with depressive diagnoses, the inattentiveness to the needs of the other mental health specialties, the continuation of the war on Freud and &quot;the mind,&quot; an unwillingness to openly acknowledge the corruption that&#8217;s arisen from the previous revisions, the reliance on non-clinicians in revising the DSM-5, the unspoken impact of the third party carriers and <em>what they&#8217;ll pay for<\/em> &#8211; the list seems like a bottomless pit.       <\/div>\n<p>  <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\">As Dr. Allen Frances says, the DSM-5 crew seems to be fighting with everyone, including Dr. Allen Frances himself. And he is <u>far and away<\/u> the most forgiving of their adversaries. He seems to actually believe that &quot;<strong><font color=\"#200020\">The experts are well intentioned and are  making  very  bad decisions for the purest of reasons&quot; <\/font><\/strong>and<strong><font color=\"#200020\"> &quot;Their conflict of   interest is  purely intellectual, not financial<\/font><\/strong>.&quot; Nobody else is that forgiving [certainly I&#8217;m not]. And Frances says that in spite of the nasty things <u><a href=\"http:\/\/www.psychiatrictimes.com\/dsm\/content\/article\/10168\/1425806\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Drs. Schatzberg<\/font><\/strong>,<strong><font color=\"#200020\"> Scully<\/font><\/strong>, <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Regier<\/font><\/strong><\/a>, and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.psychiatrictimes.com\/dsm\/content\/article\/10168\/1425806\" target=\"_blank\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Kupfer<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u> said about him:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup>Finally, Dr. Frances opened his commentary with the statement, &ldquo;We  should begin with full disclosure.&rdquo;&nbsp; It is unfortunate that Dr. Frances  failed to take this statement to heart when he did not disclose his  continued financial interests in several publications based on <em>DSM-IV<\/em>.&nbsp; Only with this information could the reader make a full assessment of his critiques of a new and different <em>DSM-V<\/em>.&nbsp; Both Dr. Frances and Dr. Spitzer have more than a personal &ldquo;pride of authorship&rdquo; interest in preserving the <em>DSM-IV <\/em>and its related case book and study products. Both continue to receive royalties on <em>DSM-IV <\/em>associated  products. The fact that Dr. Frances was informed at the APA Annual  Meeting last month that subsequent editions of his <em>DSM-IV <\/em>associated  products would cease when the new edition is finalized, should be  considered when evaluating his critique and its timing.<\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">I fully expect the powers that be in the <strong><font color=\"#200020\">APA<\/font><\/strong> [<strong><font color=\"#200020\">American Psychiatric Association<\/font><\/strong>] and its DSM-5 task force to continue to try to ignore and dismiss Dr. Frances and the considerable forces he&#8217;s beginning to represent. Sooner or later, I&#8217;ll come out of the closet and have a stab at explaining why I think they&#8217;re doing that. But for the moment, I&#8217;ll say it simply. Psychiatric training was the place I came to learn how to listen, and I got what I wanted. Not long thereafter, psychiatry and lots of psychiatrists lost [or threw away] that skill &#8211; the ability to listen. They&#8217;re not listening to Dr. Frances in the right way. They hear an old retired guy whose injured because they&#8217;re messing with his baby &#8211; the now old DSM-IV. Dr. Frances is no injured old guy. He&#8217;s a patriot who met the Buddha on the road and realized that a lot of the psychiatry he was part of and that now carries forward is on an arrogant and destructive trajectory heading for sure irrelevance. He wants to do something about that. A lot of the rest of us want to do something about that too. They&#8217;re just not listening to the right people in the right way&#8230;<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>DSM 5 Against Everyone Else Its Research Types Just Don&#8217;t Understand The Clinical World DSM5 in Distress: Psychology Today by Allen J. Frances, M.D. November 1, 2011 &#8230; Strikingly, there seems to be virtually no support for DSM 5 outside the very narrow circle of the several hundred experts who have created it and the [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_bbp_topic_count":0,"_bbp_reply_count":0,"_bbp_total_topic_count":0,"_bbp_total_reply_count":0,"_bbp_voice_count":0,"_bbp_anonymous_reply_count":0,"_bbp_topic_count_hidden":0,"_bbp_reply_count_hidden":0,"_bbp_forum_subforum_count":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-15665","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-politics"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15665","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=15665"}],"version-history":[{"count":25,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15665\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":44830,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/15665\/revisions\/44830"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=15665"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=15665"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=15665"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}