{"id":20633,"date":"2012-03-06T01:12:22","date_gmt":"2012-03-06T06:12:22","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/?p=20633"},"modified":"2012-03-06T11:51:26","modified_gmt":"2012-03-06T16:51:26","slug":"come-rest-a-while-i","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2012\/03\/06\/come-rest-a-while-i\/","title":{"rendered":"come rest a while I&#8230;"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div align=\"justify\">When people move up to these mountains, a regular house warming gift is a sign for the porch that says, &quot;come rest a while&quot; or &quot;come sit a while&quot; to put above the rocking chairs. Well, I want to hang one here to mark this second Gibbons article that was posted today. It&#8217;s going to be with me for a while, or me with it. The first one [<a href=\"http:\/\/archpsyc.ama-assn.org\/cgi\/reprint\/archgenpsychiatry.2011.2048\" target=\"_blank\"><u><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Suicidal Thoughts and Behavior With Antidepressant Treatment<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a>] used a retrospective analysis to conclude that the &quot;black box&quot; warning of suicidality with SSRIs was a fallacy, no matter what the age of the patient [<u><strong><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/wp-admin\/..\/index.php\/2012\/03\/04\/red-alert\/\"><font color=\"#990000\">red alert&hellip;<\/font><\/a><\/strong><\/u>]. Today&#8217;s article is also a retrospective analysis and says that the concerns about the efficacy of the SSRIs, particularly in mild depression, are also fallacious [no matter what the age of the patient]. That&#8217;s quite a mouthful, and deserves that we &quot;come rest a while&quot; with this article and see how he got there, particularly by analyzing data that has been sitting around for a while itself. I&#8217;m going to confine myself to the Child and Adolescent piece [at least at first]:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\"><u><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/archpsyc.ama-assn.org\/cgi\/content\/abstract\/archgenpsychiatry.2011.2044v1\" target=\"_blank\"><font color=\"200020\">Benefits From Antidepressants<\/font><\/a><\/strong><\/u>:<br \/>          <sup><strong><font color=\"200020\">Synthesis of 6-Week Patient-Level Outcomes From Double-blind Placebo-Controlled Randomized Trials of Fluoxetine and Venlafaxine<\/font><\/strong><\/sup><br \/>            <sup>by Robert D. Gibbons, PhD;  Kwan Hur, PhD;  C. Hendricks Brown, PhD;  John M. Davis, MD;  and J. John Mann, MD<\/sup><br \/>            <strong><font color=\"200020\">Archives of General Psychiatry<\/font><\/strong>. Published online March 5, 2012.<\/div>\n<p>           <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Context<\/font><\/strong>: Some meta-analyses suggest that efficacy of  antidepressants for major depression is overstated and limited to severe  depression.<br \/>            <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Objective<\/font><\/strong>: To determine the short-term efficacy of  antidepressants for treating major depressive disorder in youth, adult,  and geriatric populations.<br \/>            <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Data Sources<\/font><\/strong>: Reanalysis of all intent-to-treat person-level  longitudinal data during the first 6 weeks of treatment of major  depressive disorder from 12 adult, 4 geriatric, and 4 youth randomized  controlled trials of fluoxetine hydrochloride and 21 adult trials of  venlafaxine hydrochloride.<br \/>            <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Study Selection<\/font><\/strong>: All sponsor-conducted randomized controlled trials of fluoxetine and venlafaxine.<br \/>            <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Data Extraction<\/font><\/strong>: Children&#8217;s Depression Rating Scale&ndash;Revised  scores (youth population), Hamilton Depression Rating Scale scores  (adult and geriatric populations), and estimated response and remission  rates at 6 weeks were analyzed for 2635 adults, 960 geriatric patients,  and 708 youths receiving fluoxetine and for 2421 adults receiving  immediate-release venlafaxine and 2461 adults receiving extended-release  venlafaxine.<br \/>            <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Data Synthesis<\/font><\/strong>: Patients in all age and drug groups had  significantly greater improvement relative to control patients receiving  placebo. The differential rate of improvement was largest for adults  receiving fluoxetine (34.6% greater than those receiving placebo).  Youths had the largest treated vs control difference in response rates  (24.1%) and remission rates (30.1%), with adult differences generally in  the 15.6% (remission) to 21.4% (response) range. Geriatric patients had  the smallest drug-placebo differences, an 18.5% greater rate of  improvement, 9.9% for response and 6.5% for remission. Immediate-release  venlafaxine produced larger effects than extended-release venlafaxine.  Baseline severity could not be shown to affect symptom reduction.<br \/>            <strong><font color=\"#200020\">Conclusions<\/font><\/strong>: To our knowledge, this is the first research  synthesis in this area to use complete longitudinal person-level data  from a large set of published and unpublished studies. <strong><font color=\"#800000\">The results do  not support previous findings that antidepressants show little benefit  except for severe depression. The antidepressants fluoxetine and  venlafaxine are efficacious for major depressive disorder in all age  groups, although more so in youths and adults compared with geriatric  patients. Baseline severity was not significantly related to degree of  treatment advantage over placebo.<\/font><\/strong><\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">In the first paper, the data sources were vague. I had spent some time trying to intuit their sources [<strong><a href=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2012\/02\/24\/coming-soon-2\/\" target=\"_blank\"><font color=\"#200020\">coming soon?&hellip;<\/font><\/a><\/strong>] but couldn&#8217;t nail it down. They said in that article:<\/div>\n<ul>\n<div align=\"justify\"><sup><strong>A detailed description of the study data is available on request from the authors and will be available in a related publication.<\/strong><\/sup><\/div>\n<\/ul>\n<div align=\"justify\">&#8230; referring to this paper. Well I&#8217;m not sure that I&#8217;d call what it contained a &quot;detailed description,&quot; but at least they named the <strong>Lilly<\/strong> studies they were using, along with the <strong>Treatment of Adolescents with Depression Study<\/strong> [TADS]:<\/div>\n<p align=\"center\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"500\" height=\"126\" border=\"0\" src=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/gib-1.gif\" \/><br \/>    <sup>[only Child and Adolescent data shown]<\/sup><\/p>\n<p align=\"justify\">Let&#8217;s linger here for a moment [don&#8217;t worry &#8211; it&#8217;s the only table in the paper]. Here&#8217;s what I had guessed before based on FDA approval documents and the publications from the TADS Study [see <strong><a href=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2012\/02\/24\/coming-soon-2\" target=\"_blank\"><font color=\"#200020\">coming soon?&hellip;<\/font><\/a><\/strong>]:                                                        <\/p>\n<table align=\"center\" width=\"400\" cellspacing=\"0\" cellpadding=\"0\" border=\"0\">\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">STUDY<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">DX<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">SPONSOR<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">YEAR<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">N<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">PBO<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">FLX<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\" width=\"75\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">DURATION<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\" colspan=\"8\">\n<hr size=\"1\" \/><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">HCCJ<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#990000\">Lilly<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>1984<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">40&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">19&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">21&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">6 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><u><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/9366660\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">X065<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">NIMH?<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>1991<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">96&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">48&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">48&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">8 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><u><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/12364842\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">HCJE<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#990000\">Lilly<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>1998<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">219&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">110&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">109&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">13 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">HCJW<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">OCD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#990000\">Lilly<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>1999<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>103<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>71<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>32<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">9 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"right\" colspan=\"4\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">subtotal&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">458&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">248&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">210&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"right\" colspan=\"8\">&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><u><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/jama.ama-assn.org\/content\/292\/7\/807.long\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">TADS<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">NIMH<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>2000<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>433<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>206<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>227<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">36 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"right\" colspan=\"4\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">total&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">891&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">454&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">437&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n<p align=\"justify\">And here&#8217;s what Gibbons used in his analysis: <\/p>\n<table align=\"center\" width=\"400\" cellspacing=\"0\" cellpadding=\"0\" border=\"0\">\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">STUDY<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">DX<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">SPONSOR<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">YEAR<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">N<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">PBO<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">FLX<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\" width=\"75\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">DURATION<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\" colspan=\"8\">\n<hr size=\"1\" \/><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><u><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/9366660\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">X065<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">NIMH?<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>1991<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">96&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">48&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">48&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">6 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><u><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/12364842\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">HCJE<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#990000\">Lilly<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>1998<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">219&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">110&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">109&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">6 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">LYAQ<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#990000\">Lilly?<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>?<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">172&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">45&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">127&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">6 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"center\"><u><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/jama.ama-assn.org\/content\/292\/7\/807.long\"><strong><font color=\"#660033\">TADS<\/font><\/strong><\/a><\/u><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">MDD<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><strong><font color=\"#0066ff\">NIMH<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"center\"><em>2000<\/em><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>221<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>112<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\"><u>109<\/u>&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">6 weeks&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<tr>\n<td align=\"right\" colspan=\"4\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">total&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/font><\/strong><\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">708&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">315&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">393&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<td align=\"right\">&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n<p align=\"justify\">Some of the differences are clear. His group only analyzed the first six weeks because that was the shortest study [including adult studies]. They wanted complete data for all studies in their analysis [?]. Studies <strong><font color=\"#200020\">X065<\/font><\/strong> and <strong><font color=\"#200020\">HCJE<\/font><\/strong> were part of the&nbsp; <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.accessdata.fda.gov\/drugsatfda_docs\/nda\/2003\/18936S064_Prozac%20Pulvules_medr.pdf#page=12\"><u><strong><font color=\"#660033\">FDA Medical Review<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a>. They were both published by Dr. Emslie et al [<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/9366660\"><u><strong><font color=\"#200020\">A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial of fluoxetine in children and adolescents with depression<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a>, <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/12364842\"><u><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Fluoxetine for acute treatment of depression in children and adolescents: a placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a>, reviewed on this blog in <u><strong><a href=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2011\/07\/22\/tuning-the-quartet\" target=\"_blank\"><font color=\"#200020\">tuning the quartet&hellip;<\/font><\/a><\/strong><\/u>]. I don&#8217;t have a clue where Study <strong><font color=\"#200020\">LYAQ<\/font><\/strong> came from. It&#8217;s not listed on <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.lillytrials.com\/results\/Prozac.pdf\"><u><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Lilly&#8217;s Clinical Trial site<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a>. If you figure it out, let me know [from the text of the article, I think it was an in-patient study]. The <strong><font color=\"#200020\">TADS<\/font><\/strong> trial [<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/jama.ama-assn.org\/content\/292\/7\/807.long\"><u><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Fluoxetine, Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy, and Their Combination for Adolescents With Depression<\/font><\/strong><\/u><\/a>] had four groups &#8211; Placebo, Prozac, Cognitive Behavior Therapy [CBT], and Prozac+CBT. In this analysis, they only used the Placebo and the Prozac groups, explaining the different numbers in the two tables, again truncating the trial to the first six weeks [the first part of <strong><font color=\"#200020\">TADS<\/font><\/strong> lasted 12 weeks]. Note that Dr. Emslie was a member of the TADS group as well.<\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\">My apologies for being so tedious, but it took me an evening to figure this much out about his data sample. It&#8217;s the first six weeks of longer trials considering only the Placebo and Prozac groups from the studies. I&#8217;m going to call getting this far enough for one night, and <em>go<\/em> rest a while&#8230;<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>When people move up to these mountains, a regular house warming gift is a sign for the porch that says, &quot;come rest a while&quot; or &quot;come sit a while&quot; to put above the rocking chairs. Well, I want to hang one here to mark this second Gibbons article that was posted today. It&#8217;s going to [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_bbp_topic_count":0,"_bbp_reply_count":0,"_bbp_total_topic_count":0,"_bbp_total_reply_count":0,"_bbp_voice_count":0,"_bbp_anonymous_reply_count":0,"_bbp_forum_subforum_count":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-20633","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-politics"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20633","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=20633"}],"version-history":[{"count":31,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20633\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":20667,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20633\/revisions\/20667"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=20633"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=20633"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=20633"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}