{"id":2620,"date":"2008-11-15T07:00:27","date_gmt":"2008-11-15T12:00:27","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/?p=2620"},"modified":"2009-03-05T00:33:34","modified_gmt":"2009-03-05T05:33:34","slug":"opinion-vengence-is-mine-sayeth-the-lord","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2008\/11\/15\/opinion-vengence-is-mine-sayeth-the-lord\/","title":{"rendered":"OPINION: vengence is mine, sayeth the lord<\/em>…"},"content":{"rendered":"
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Something New:<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
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As advertised, I asked some others to contribute opinions. Ralph is the first taker [below]. I’ll post other reactions as [or if] they come in. Feel free to comment or contribute. It’s an important question.<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

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Will We Ever Learn the Truth?<\/strong><\/a>
By Dan Froomkin<\/strong><\/div>\n

Will we ever find out what President Bush really did in our name? There’s so much we still don’t know — about torture, warrantless wiretapping, and the politicization of the Justice Department, just for starters. Once Bush leaves office, will there be congressional investigations? Criminal investigations? Bipartisan commission investigations? Will President Obama make public all the relevant records? Will ex-president Bush still try to assert executive privilege? Will it work?<\/sup><\/p>\n

Charlie Savage<\/a><\/strong> explores some of these questions in today’s New York Times. In 1953, Congress established "a precedent suggesting that former presidents wield lingering powers to keep matters from their administration secret," he writes. "Now, as Congressional Democrats prepare to move forward with investigations of the Bush administration, they wonder whether that claim may be invoked again. Topics of open investigations include the harsh interrogation of detainees, the prosecution of former Gov. Don Siegelman of Alabama, secret legal memorandums from the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel and the role of the former White House aides Karl Rove and Harriet E. Miers in the firing of federal prosecutors."<\/sup><\/p>\n

"Investigators hope that the Obama administration will open the filing cabinets and withdraw assertions of executive privilege that Bush officials have invoked to keep from testifying." But, as Savage notes, it is not clear "how a President Barack Obama will handle such requests. Legal specialists said the pressure to investigate the Bush years would raise tough political and legal questions…<\/sup><\/p>\n

And even "if Mr. Obama decides to release information about his predecessor’s tenure, Mr. Bush could try to invoke executive privilege by filing a lawsuit, said Peter Shane, a law professor at Ohio State University. "In that case, an injunction would most likely be sought ordering the Obama administration not to release the Bush administration’s papers or enjoining Mr. Bush’s former aides from testifying. The dispute would probably go to the Supreme Court, Mr. Shane said."<\/sup><\/p>\n

Carrie Johnson<\/a><\/strong> writes in The Washington Post that Obama advisors charged with overhauling the Justice Department don’t quite know where to begin, though "topping the list of concerns is the Office of Legal Counsel, a once-obscure operation whose advice guides some of the government’s most sensitive and controversial policies, from domestic wiretapping to the appropriateness of handing out public funding to religious groups…<\/strong><\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n
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Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfowitz, Feith, Yoo, Addington, Rove, Libby, Bolton, Gonzales<\/sup><\/font><\/strong> <\/div>\n
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Bush, Out of Office, Could Oppose Inquiries<\/strong><\/a>
By CHARLIE SAVAGE<\/div>\n

When a Congressional committee subpoenaed Harry S. Truman in 1953, nearly a year after he left office, he made a startling claim: Even though he was no longer president, the Constitution still empowered him to block subpoenas. “If the doctrine of separation of powers and the independence of the presidency is to have any validity at all, it must be equally applicable to a president after his term of office has expired,” Truman wrote to the committee. Congress backed down, establishing a precedent suggesting that former presidents wield lingering powers to keep matters from their administration secret. Now, as Congressional Democrats prepare to move forward with investigations of the Bush administration, they wonder whether that claim may be invoked again.<\/sup><\/p>\n

“The Bush administration overstepped in its exertion of executive privilege, and may very well try to continue to shield information from the American people after it leaves office,” said Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, who sits on two committees, Judiciary and Intelligence, that are examining aspects of Mr. Bush’s policies. Topics of open investigations include the harsh interrogation of detainees, the prosecution of former Gov. Don Siegelman of Alabama, secret legal memorandums from the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel and the role of the former White House aides Karl Rove and Harriet E. Miers in the firing of federal prosecutors.<\/sup><\/p>\n

Mr. Bush has used his executive powers to block Congressional requests for executive branch documents and testimony from former aides. But investigators hope that the Obama administration will open the filing cabinets and withdraw assertions of executive privilege that Bush officials have invoked to keep from testifying…<\/strong><\/sup><\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n

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says 1boringoldman<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
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I am very conflicted about even thinking about this topic. My thoughts run from "dog them to the ends of the earth" [model: Isael’s strategy with former Nazis] to "forget them, free at last" [model: the farmer after the locusts have gone]. Maybe Hurricane Katrina would be a more appropriate model, "Things will never be the same so it’s time to build something new, but we’ve got to repair those Dykes so this can never<\/u> happen again." I think this contains a compass for Obama dealing with the Administration that preceeded him. Bush, Cheney, and Addington lived in the "loopholes" – the ones that they found and the one’s they created. Those are the Dykes that need to be repaired\/plugged. <\/div>\n

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They ran roughshod over Separation of Powers in every area possible – with Signing Statements, Executive Priviledge, ‘end arounds’ with the courts, secrecy, SECRECY, SECRECY<\/strong>. It’s not punishment that should lead the way. It’s rehabilitation of the system they mined and plundered. Like many, I’d like to put them in the Stocks and throw rotten vegetables at them, but that serves no purpose. I think it will require careful parsing of the messes they made to find the areas where their precedents need to be nipped in the bud for all times. And one of those areas is refusing to allow their lackeys to testify. If Fitzgerald can throw Judith Miller in Prison, we can do the same thing with Mr. Rove and Ms. Miers. That’s an area where we need to deny Bush’s claims of Executive Priviledge. I think Froomkin is right on target. We need to know what happened<\/strong>, to "Learn the Truth<\/strong><\/font>"…<\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

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says Ralph<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
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I, too, am conflicted about the question you pose.  Eight years of pent up rage, indignation, dismay and fear for the future of our country leave me saturated with bitter bile and hungry for revenge.  I want to see Rove and Cheney frog-marched to jail.  I want Bush to stand a humiliating trial but, in the end, probably not go to jail.<\/div>\n

But I could relinquish those demands in exchange for a thorough investigation that exposes all that was done and establishes the Truth of these last 8 years. South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation process is a good model.<\/p>\n

And let’s be practical; if the Bushies are at risk for prosecution, they will tie it up in courts until we all just grow weary and throw in the towel or die of old age.   That should not happen.  It’s more important to expose the whole mess and get the truth than it is to punish the perpetrators.<\/p>\n

Now the risk here is that somehow we give up the chance to prosecute and still don’t get the truth.  It’s got to be done it a way that that outcome is not possible.<\/p>\n

One way would be to set up a high level Commission, as removed from political partisanship as possible, with the best team of special prosecutors they can come up with.  It would have power to subpoena, including all the documents that have been hidden by "executive privilege," and it could grant immunity so they could actually get the necessary testimony and evidence.<\/p>\n

My fear is that Obama will care too much about "bringing the country together," and will think that goal more important than establishing the truth.  I can’t think of anything that could truly bring the country together as much as the healing that can come from exposing the rot that was the core of the Bush Administration.<\/p>\n

At least he has signaled his intent to investigate the torture problem.  And I know he will not let the Dept. of Justice politicization go uninvestigated.   Let’s hope he doesn’t stop there.<\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

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says Smoooochie<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
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The hard part of this whole deal is that there is just so much to deal with. And while you eat an elephant one bite at a time, I’m not sure we have that much time. Time is the enemy now, because the longer we spin our wheels the more that will be left behind and it all needs to see the light of day. Between the wiretapping, the infiltration of the Justice department & all that went along with that, Valarie Plame and all the secrecy surrounding the war, the use of torture, the use of the executive branch to hide their lies behind, and it just goes on. That being said I think that it must be done and the process must start half a second after Obama is sworn in. And a process it will be.<\/div>\n

I probably have too much faith in Obama. Faith that his Constitutional law background will need to see that document protected and as importantly, avenged. While DDE had the power to say that he maintained a certain portion of the presidential power, I don’t know that his administration had the corruption and lies lurking in the wings like the Bush administration does. The secret dealings and clearly on the border of illegal activity must be brought to light and if not tried at the very minimum exposed and systems put in place so that it can’t happen again.<\/p>\n

I think Patrick Fitzgerald did a hell of a job with what he was given. I hope Harry Reid can be on board and not let this thing go. And lastly, I hope that we can get their equals to work on each of the fronts to get some resolution in the next 4 years. We, as a people, cannot let this piece of history go silently into the books. We must demand that the full story is able to be told or this WILL happen again.<\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

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says Carl<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
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…Relative to your specific Park Bench request for rocking chair inputs, I share your sense of interior disquiet. A couple of years ago I started telling everyone who I thought would listen to me that the next President had an easy job ahead…all he (or she) would have to do would be to review the calendar for each and every day George W. Bush and Company occupied the executive branch and to simply undo what got done on that day. Thus, on Day 1, if anything relevant to anything happened on Bush’s watch, you veto that and put it back to the way it was before, then move on to Day 2, Day 3 and so on. My emotion obviously was driving naive and not all that productive advice though there is something at the heart of it that is germane to the discussion. How much do we need to go back and re-hash and see justice done as opposed to forging ahead and exerting our energies getting things back onto a track that will be constructive for suceeding generations of Americans? <\/div>\n

I wanted very much for Bush and Cheney to be impeached and put up on charges. I really wanted Rumsfeld to answer for leadership behavior that went beyond dereliction into the realm of criminality and on and on ad nauseum. Really, the whole bloody mess has been unbearable and our men and women are still dying and being ripped apart every day, our children’s futures still exposed to diminishing influences every minute that the sordid legacy of an inept and wrong-minded cabal play out.<\/p>\n

I’m leaning to an Obama pardon of Bush and Cheney then funding a special commission to research and publish all the questionable if not criminal behavior underlying the astonishing concentration of power in the executive branch, the ideologically hiring of people occupying positions of influence on the public welfare, the criminal outing of CIA operatives and all the rest … lets finally obtain every bit of information that can be obtained and expose it to the clear light of public scrutiny. Much of what will be revealed might contribute to a degree of criticism of the President for issuing the pardons but I think he will be able to withstand that on the basis of what was good for the country. A pardon would emasculate their law suits and stonewalling. I don’t really buy Truman’s argument…I want to know what these jizzballs did in our names.<\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n

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says Joyhollywood<\/strong><\/font><\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
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You have two great reporters writing on something I feel very strongly about. We have a President and Vice President that just about destroyed the country by ignoring the two other branches of government [Judicial & Legislative] that protect us from their overreaching their authority. Cheney’s experience in his different jobs in government through the years helped him manipulate his and Bush’s positions to a near dictatorship, or to be more gentle a monarchy. We as Americans have to safeguard our country to prevent such lawlessness from every happening again. The old adage "you have to name it, to call it what it is."<\/div>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/table>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Something New: As advertised, I asked some others to contribute opinions. Ralph is the first taker [below]. I’ll post other reactions as [or if] they come in. Feel free to comment or contribute. It’s an important question. Will We Ever Learn the Truth? By Dan Froomkin Will we ever find out what President Bush really […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_bbp_topic_count":0,"_bbp_reply_count":0,"_bbp_total_topic_count":0,"_bbp_total_reply_count":0,"_bbp_voice_count":0,"_bbp_anonymous_reply_count":0,"_bbp_forum_subforum_count":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2620","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-politics"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2620","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2620"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2620\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2620"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2620"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2620"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}