{"id":51472,"date":"2014-10-31T16:14:14","date_gmt":"2014-10-31T20:14:14","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/?p=51472"},"modified":"2014-11-10T05:10:07","modified_gmt":"2014-11-10T10:10:07","slug":"unsupportable-and-totally-irrational","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2014\/10\/31\/unsupportable-and-totally-irrational\/","title":{"rendered":"unsupportable and totally irrational&#8230;"},"content":{"rendered":"<br \/>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"big\"><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.nejm.org\/doi\/full\/10.1056\/NEJMp1408480#t=article\">Antidepressants&#8217; Black-Box Warning&nbsp;<\/a><\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"big\"><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.nejm.org\/doi\/full\/10.1056\/NEJMp1408480#t=article\">                &#8211; 10 Years Later<\/a><\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"small\">by Richard A. Friedman, M.D.<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">New England Journal of Medicine<\/font><\/strong> 2014  371:1666-1668.<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\">[<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.nejm.org\/doi\/full\/10.1056\/NEJMp1408480#t=article\">full text on-line<\/a>]<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">The  core of this seemingly endless debate about the Black Box Warning  revolves around a more fundamental question about the source of medical  knowledge &#8211; observations made on&nbsp; the collective? or on individual  cases? Obviously the answer is some version of <em>both<\/em>, but this debate puts the subtilties of the distinction in bas-relief:<\/div>\n<ul><span class=\"small\">               <\/p>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Case Reports:<\/font><\/strong> There are ample collections of case reports [<a href=\"http:\/\/www.ssristories.org\/\" target=\"_blank\">SSRI Stories<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.rxisk.org\/Default.aspx\" target=\"_blank\"><font color=\"#990000\">Rx<\/font><font color=\"#000001\">isk<\/font><\/a>,  etc] that document the syndrome of Akathisia with suicidal and  homicidal thoughts and acts. And the most convincing evidence comes from  personal encounter. Having seen such cases, I have no question that it  is a very real phenomenon, though uncommon.              <\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Data from RTCs [Randomized Clinical Trials]:<\/font><\/strong>  Meta-analyses, notably the FDA review by Hamads et al, find a small but  significant increase in suicidality in the Clinical Trials of  antidepressants in youth.              <\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Population Studies:<\/font><\/strong>  The majority of authors who oppose or want to revoke the Black Box  Warning base their arguments on the collection of population studies  that come from a variety of sources. They show that the Black Box  Warning did decrease anti-depressant prescription rates particularly in  youth. Most of these studies show no real change in the overall rates of  suicidal thinking or completed suicide. <\/div>\n<\/li>\n<p>               <\/span><\/ul>\n<div align=\"justify\">This  debate is further complicated by controversy over the efficacy of  antidepressant treatment in depressed children and adolescents. Only two  of the SSRIs [Prozac and Lexapro] have been approved by the FDA&nbsp; for  the treatment of pediatric depression. And none of the RCTs [including  those of these two drugs] have shown anything like a robust response in  this age group:         <\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"big\"><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/summaries.cochrane.org\/CD004851\/DEPRESSN_newer-antidepressants-for-depression-in-children-and-adolescents\">Newer generation antidepressants for depressive disorders in children and adolescents<\/a><\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"big\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Cochrane Systematic Reviews<\/font><\/strong><\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\">by Sarah E Hetrick, Joanne E McKenzie, Georgina R Cox, Magenta B Simmons, and Sally N Merry<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"small\">14 NOV 2012<\/div>\n<p align=\"justify\">&#8230;  Based on 14 of the trials [2490 participants in total],  there was  evidence that those treated with an antidepressant had lower  depression  severity scores than those on placebo, however, the size of  this  difference was small. Based on 17 trials [3229 participants in  total],  there was evidence of an increased risk [64%] of suicide-related   outcomes for those on antidepressants compared with those given   placebo&#8230;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\">The  argument mounted by people who support the Black Box Warning is simple,  coming primarily from the case reports: The syndrome does occur and both  doctors and patients need to know about it. It&#8217;s what the warning says:<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\"><img decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" vspace=\"5\" src=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/black-box-1.gif\" \/><\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\">The  argument coming from the anti-Black-Box set is more complex. They  propose that the Black Box Warning itself discourages doctors from  prescribing and patients from taking antidepressants, so depressed youth  are going untreated. In <a href=\"http:\/\/www.nejm.org\/doi\/full\/10.1056\/NEJMp1408480#t=article\" target=\"_blank\">Friedman&#8217;s paper<\/a>, he says:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">Nevertheless,  given the overall direction of these trends, <strong><font color=\"#200020\">it is  critically  important for primary care providers, who see and treat a  substantial  proportion of depressed patients, to know that the risk  posed by  untreated depression &mdash; in terms of morbidity and mortality &mdash;  has always  been far greater than the very small risk associated with   antidepressant treatment.<\/font><\/strong> We need to better educate physicians, to help  them understand that  although they cannot ignore that small risk, they  can safely manage it  by carefully monitoring their patients,  particularly children and  adolescents, during pharmacotherapy.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">Then he concludes:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">What  should the FDA do in light of these observational data? Given that  the  agency&#8217;s 2007 modification of the black-box warning has not been   sufficient to prevent what seems to be a chilling effect on depression   treatment &mdash; perhaps the mere presence of a warning speaks louder than   any clarification it may contain &mdash; I believe it&#8217;s unlikely that further   modification would be helpful. I would therefore argue that the FDA   should consider removing the warning entirely&#8230;<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">The &laquo;<em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">chilling effect on depression treatment<\/font><\/strong><\/em>&raquo;  punch line in this argument is hard for me to take, or for that matter, even  follow. The notion that the antidepressant drugs are effective enough in  pediatric depression to warrant Dr. Friedman&#8217;s <em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">&laquo;chill<\/font><\/strong><\/em>&raquo; is unsupported by anything I can see. And as for <em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">&laquo;the risk  posed by untreated depression&raquo;<\/font><\/strong><\/em>,  those unmedicated subjects have actually been <em>well studied<\/em> themselves. They&#8217;re the Placebo Groups in each of those Clinical Trials.<\/div>\n<p align=\"justify\">Well, I wasn&#8217;t <em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">&laquo;chilled<\/font><\/strong><\/em>&raquo; by what I recalled of that paper Friedman is talking about, by <a href=\"http:\/\/www.bmj.com\/content\/348\/bmj.g3596#aff-1\" target=\"_blank\">Lu et al<\/a>, so I went back for another look. I still wasn&#8217;t impressed that the Black Box Warning had that big an effect. I noticed that their graphs were drawn on different scales for adolescents, young adults, and adults. So on a lark, I graphically transposed the antidepressant usage onto a single graph with a unified scale, and look what happened&#8230;<\/p>\n<p align=\"center\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" width=\"384\" height=\"324\" src=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/lu-et-al.gif\" \/><\/p>\n<p align=\"justify\">compared to <a href=\"http:\/\/www.bmj.com\/content\/bmj\/348\/bmj.g3596\/F1.large.jpg\" target=\"_blank\">this<\/a> [a bit of presentation <strike>&nbsp;bias&nbsp;<\/strike> trickery at work in my humble opinion].<\/p>\n<p align=\"center\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" width=\"520\" height=\"109\" src=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/lu-et-al-1.gif\" \/><\/p>\n<p align=\"justify\">The dip in prescriptions for adolescents was not so impressive after all! And as I look at those changes, they&#8217;re exactly what I would predict [and want] from the Warning. In all three cases [adolescent, young adult, and adult] it&#8217;s not so much that prescription rates even fell, they <em>stopped rising<\/em> [recall that it&#8217;s a percentage scale]. That&#8217;s expected, rational, careful &#8211; good for them. So back to the thread, I&#8217;m <u>really<\/u> not <em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">&laquo;chilled<\/font><\/strong><\/em>&raquo; now.<\/p>\n<p align=\"justify\">This is my biggest pet peeve with the KOL set. They talk as if a diagnosis of depression means the patient should be on antidepressants. Where did that ever come from? That&#8217;s not even true for adults &#8211; and it&#8217;s absolutely not true for adolescents. These drugs are just not that powerful. And, by the way, they&#8217;re still prescribing a whole lot of antidepressants for kids. So Dr. Friedman&#8217;s [and other anti-Black-Box-Ninjas&#8217;] argument that we need to get rid of the Warning so that Primary Care Doctors won&#8217;t be afraid to give these deprived teens antidepressants is unsupportable and totally irrational from any direction I know. Shame on him for even making the suggestion. <\/p>\n<div><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Note:<\/font><\/strong> Dr. Stone approaches this from a different angle in a companion piece, and makes some excellent points:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"big\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.nejm.org\/doi\/full\/10.1056\/NEJMp1411138\" target=\"_blank\">The FDA Warning on Antidepressants and Suicidality<br \/>    &#8211; Why the Controversy?<\/a><\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"small\">by Marc B. Stone, M.D.<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">New England Journal of Medicine<\/font><\/strong> 2014  371:1668-1671.<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\">[<a href=\"http:\/\/www.nejm.org\/doi\/full\/10.1056\/NEJMp1411138\" target=\"_blank\">full text on-line<\/a>]<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Antidepressants&#8217; Black-Box Warning&nbsp; &#8211; 10 Years Later by Richard A. Friedman, M.D. New England Journal of Medicine 2014 371:1666-1668. [full text on-line] The core of this seemingly endless debate about the Black Box Warning revolves around a more fundamental question about the source of medical knowledge &#8211; observations made on&nbsp; the collective? or on individual [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_bbp_topic_count":0,"_bbp_reply_count":0,"_bbp_total_topic_count":0,"_bbp_total_reply_count":0,"_bbp_voice_count":0,"_bbp_anonymous_reply_count":0,"_bbp_topic_count_hidden":0,"_bbp_reply_count_hidden":0,"_bbp_forum_subforum_count":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-51472","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-opinion"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/51472","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=51472"}],"version-history":[{"count":15,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/51472\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":51611,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/51472\/revisions\/51611"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=51472"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=51472"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=51472"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}