{"id":66861,"date":"2016-07-14T06:00:06","date_gmt":"2016-07-14T10:00:06","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/?p=66861"},"modified":"2016-07-14T19:56:36","modified_gmt":"2016-07-14T23:56:36","slug":"listening-to-placebo-i","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2016\/07\/14\/listening-to-placebo-i\/","title":{"rendered":"listening to placebo&#8230;"},"content":{"rendered":"<div align=\"justify\"><sup><em><font color=\"#200020\">&quot;Another issue with pediatric clinical trials is that 61 percent of youth respond to the drugs, but 50 percent respond to placebo, compared with 30 percent among adults, making it hard to separate effects.&quot;<\/font><\/em><\/sup><\/div>\n<div align=\"left\"><sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<font color=\"#200020\">Karen Dineen Wagner<\/font><\/sup><\/div>\n<div align=\"left\"><sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<em><font color=\"#200020\">in<\/font><\/em> <a href=\"http:\/\/psychnews.psychiatryonline.org\/doi\/full\/10.1176\/appi.pn.2016.6b3\" target=\"_blank\">Child Psychiatrists Look at Specialty From Both Macro, Micro Perspectives<\/a><\/sup><\/div>\n<p>          <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\"><img decoding=\"async\" hspace=\"4\" height=\"150\" border=\"0\" align=\"right\" src=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/fig-2.gif\" alt=\"Paxil Study 329: HAM-D difference from baseline\" title=\"Paxil Study 329: HAM-D difference from baseline\" \/>The <a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Placebo\" target=\"_blank\">Placebo Effect<\/a> in Clinical Trials is more than a philosophical matter. It&#8217;s a practical consideration, something that is regularly subtracted from the overall effect in presenting the results, yet it&#8217;s poorly understood itself. For some, it&#8217;s seen as the sampling phenomenon referred to as the <em><font color=\"#200020\">regression to the mean<\/font><\/em> [see <a href=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/2015\/12\/17\/in-the-land-of-sometimes4\/\">in the land of sometimes[4]&hellip;<\/a>]; for others, it&#8217;s suggestability and expectation; and there&#8217;s also a literature exploring a genetic\/neurobiological component. <em><font color=\"#200020\">But just looking at the graphs, one might well conclude that simply being in as trial is itself a therapy.<\/font><\/em> The placebo effect is certainly a prominent effect in the adolescent antidepressant trials that have frequently graced these pages. Here&#8217;s an interesting deconstruction specifically attempting to parse out the role of<em><font color=\"#200020\"> expectation of benefit<\/font><\/em> in these trials:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"big\"><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pubmed\/21784298\">Deconstructing Pediatric Depression Trials: An Analysis of the Effects of Expectancy and Therapeutic Contact<\/a><\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\">by Bret R. Rutherford M.D., Joel R. Sneed Ph.D., Jane M. Tandler H.S., David Rindskopf Ph.D., Bradley S. Peterson M.D. and Steven P. Roose M.D.<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\"><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Journal of the American Academy of Child &amp; Adolescent Psychiatry.<\/font><\/strong> 2011 50[8]:782-95.<\/div>\n<div align=\"center\" class=\"middle\">[<a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\/pmc\/articles\/PMC3143372\/\">full text on-line<\/a>]<\/div>\n<p>                         <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em><strong><font color=\"#200020\"><u>Objective<\/u>:<\/font><\/strong><\/em>  This study investigated how study type, mean patient age, and amount of contact with research staff affected response rates to medication and placebo in acute antidepressant trials for pediatric depression.<\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em><strong><font color=\"#200020\"><u>Method<\/u>:<\/font><\/strong><\/em>  Data were extracted from nine open, four active comparator, and 18 placebo-controlled studies of antidepressants for children and adolescents with depressive disorders. A multilevel meta-analysis examined how study characteristics affected response rates to antidepressants and placebo.<\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em><strong><font color=\"#200020\"><u>Results<\/u>:<\/font><\/strong><\/em>  The primary finding was a main effect of study type across patient age and contact amount, such that the odds of medication response were greater in open versus placebo-controlled studies [odds ratio 1.87, 95% confidence interval 1.17&ndash;2.99, p = .012] and comparator studies [odds ratio 2.01, 95% confidence interval 1.16&ndash;3.48, p = .015] but were not significantly different between comparator and placebo-controlled studies. No significant main effects of patient age or amount of contact with research staff were found for analyses of response rates to medication and placebo. Response to placebo in placebo-controlled trials did significantly increase with the amount of therapeutic contact in older patients [age by contact; odds ratio 1.08, 95% confidence interval 1.01&ndash;1.15, p = .038].<\/div>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em><strong><font color=\"#200020\"><u>Conclusions<\/u>:<\/font><\/strong><\/em> <em><strong><font color=\"#660033\"> Although patient expectancy strongly influences response rates to medication and placebo in depressed adults, it appears to be less important in the treatment of children and adolescents with depression.<\/font><\/strong><\/em> Attempts to limit placebo response and improve the efficiency of antidepressant trials for pediatric depression should focus on other causes of placebo response apart from expectancy.<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">This topic has been in my mind since our RIAT Project on <a href=\"http:\/\/www.bmj.com\/content\/351\/bmj.h4320\" target=\"_blank\">Paxil Study 329<\/a>. I had three versions of the Protocol. The 1993 and 1996 a priori versions said:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">&quot;<em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Medical Management<\/font><\/strong><\/em><\/div>\n<p align=\"justify\"><em>Psychotherapy Experience in protocols in depressed adolescents suggest that patients and families expect psychotherapy and are reluctant to consider a course of medication treatment alone, especially where the medication may be solely placebo. On the other hand, a provision of treatment with a psychotherapy which, in retrospect, turned out to be extraordinarily efficacious might well preclude the demonstration of a real, significant, and clinically meaningful medication effect. There are currently several research groups beginning the process of examining different specific psychotherapies [e.g. cognitive behavioral and interpersonal] for adolescent depression. As of yet, however, there are no completed controlled studies which would suggest a &quot;reference&quot; psychotherapy treatment. <strong><font color=\"#660033\">The present study will include supportive psychotherapy, similar to the management as described by Fawcett in Appendix G.<\/font><\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em><strong><font color=\"#660033\">Weekly visits will consist of a 45 minute visit with the therapist. In unusual circumstances, emergency contact of greater duration is permitted. Duration of all contact including phone calls will be systematically documented.<\/font><\/strong><\/em>&quot;<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">And the version in the <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.gsk.com\/media\/389566\/depression_329_full.pdf\"><font color=\"#200020\">Full Acute Study Report<\/font><\/a> [page 35] for that study said:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">&quot;<em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">3.5.4  Other Protocol-specified Therapy<\/font><\/strong><\/em><\/div>\n<p><em> <br \/>                 <\/em><\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\"><em><strong><font color=\"#660033\">Supportive psychotherapy for the depressive episode was provided in a manner similar to that described by Fawcett and coworkers in the Adolescent Depression Collaborative Research Group.<\/font><\/strong>[10]  Psychotherapy was intended to provide the psychosocial interaction between the patient and the therapist that would permit observation of any pharmacotherapeutic effect of the study medication. Therefore, <strong><font color=\"#660033\">the sessions were to focus on providing supportive therapy rather than implementing interpersonal or cognitive\/behavioral strategies.  At each weekly visit, the patient had a 45-minute visit with the therapist.<\/font><\/strong>  However, emergency contact of greater duration was permitted under unusual circumstances.<\/em>&quot;<\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">As for the Fawcett document explicitly spelling out the supportive psychotherapy mentioned, it&#8217;s in Appendix A of the 329 Study Report, freely available <a href=\"http:\/\/www.gsk.com\/media\/360485\/329-AppA.PDF#page=69\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"329 Appendix A\">online here<\/a> [<strong><font color=\"#200020\">Note: see below<\/font><\/strong>]. It goes on for 20 plus pages, ending with a <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.gsk.com\/media\/360485\/329-AppA.PDF#page=91\">list of DOs and DONTs<\/a> that captures the essence of the recommendations:<\/div>\n<blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\">DO&#8217;S:<\/div>\n<ul>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Speak about current experiences.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Inquire about feelings.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Acknowledge understanding of feelings.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Inquire about events not spontaneously reported.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Inquire about the patient&#8217;s thoughts about solving problems<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Express sympathy if misfortunes occur.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Communicate shared pleasure at positive events.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Congratulate patient for success.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Give the patient hope of the likelihood of his\/her getting better.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<div align=\"justify\">DONTs:<\/div>\n<ul> <\/ul>\n<ul>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Relate current conflict or attitudes to earlier experiences.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Draw analogies between behavior toward some people and other, such toward parent and toward friends, siblings, teachers, etc.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Challenge patients view of self or others<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Give specific suggestions for resolving conflict.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Bring up childhood experiences.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Bring to the patient&#8217;s attention that his\/her behavior appears to represent specific difficulties, such as fear of failure, fear of rejection, etc.<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">Bring to the patients attention that his\/her behavior has intents that he\/she is not acknowledging [i.e., punishing parents, getting revenge on friends, trying to prove is generous, etc.].<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/blockquote>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">If it&#8217;s not yet obvious where I&#8217;m headed with this, it&#8217;s pretty simple. Every subject in Paxil Study 329 had weekly psychotherapy as described above. The DONTs on that list, while intended to avoid psychoanalytic interventions, is actually a list of the kinds of interventions traditionally avoided in therapy with children and adolescents because they are perceived as criticisms. And the DOs are pretty close to the effective alternatives.             <\/div>\n<p align=\"center\" class=\"small\"><img decoding=\"async\" border=\"0\" src=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/fig-2-1.gif\" alt=\"Paxil Study 329: HAM-D difference from baseline and Response Rates\" title=\"Paxil Study 329: HAM-D difference from baseline and Response Rates\" \/><\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">So in this example of Paxil Study 329 &#8230;<\/div>\n<ol><sup><font color=\"#200020\">             <\/p>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">the magnitude of the change can hardly be explained simply by <em><font color=\"#200020\">regression to the mean<\/font><\/em><\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">it is highly unlikely that the change is due simply to expectations or suggestion           <\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">this cohort had been depressed for over a year on average before the study, so <em>natural course of disease<\/em> also seems an unlikely explanation          <\/div>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<div align=\"justify\">the supportive psychotherapy of 8 weekly sessions fits traditional parameters for therapy with depressed adolescents<\/div>\n<\/li>\n<p>             <\/font><\/sup><\/ol>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">&#8230; it&#8217;s reasonable to conclude that the supportive psychotherapeutic approach was an effective intervention for these depressed adolescents. And in this instance, I feel solid with our conclusion that the Paxil did not have any significant impact on the outcome [see <a href=\"http:\/\/www.bmj.com\/content\/351\/bmj.h4320\" target=\"_blank\">Restoring Study 329: efficacy and harms of paroxetine and imipramine in treatment of major depression in adolescence<\/a>].<\/div>\n<p align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">So, 1boringoldman, are you suggesting that the placebo effect is in fact an artifact of the clinical trial itself? and the way the study was conducted? and that the magnitude of the effect might correlate with how the adolescents were approached? and that Study 329 was a particularly effective version? Sure that&#8217;s what I think, but I can&#8217;t go further than speculate or hypothesize because I don&#8217;t have any other protocols. And beyond that, I have no way of knowing what was actually done in the studies themselves. But a supportive, non-confrontational psychotherapeutic stance has been effective with adolescents in my own experience, so of course that&#8217;s what I think even though it&#8217;s an antecdotal opinion [don&#8217;t discount it until you read Fawcett].         <\/p>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\">I have no question that SSRIs can be helpful in cases of OCD or generalized anxiety disorders in adolescents, though used with caution, close observation, and as a therapeutic trial rather than routinely. And I wouldn&#8217;t generalize these comments to adults where my experience says that these drugs can be helpful with depressive symptoms. But with depressed teens? Let&#8217;s talk&#8230;<\/div>\n<hr size=\"1\" \/>\n<hr size=\"1\" \/>\n<div align=\"justify\" class=\"small\"><em><strong><font color=\"#200020\">Note:<\/font><\/strong><\/em> The version of <font color=\"#200020\">Fawcett et al<\/font> in the <a href=\"http:\/\/www.gsk.com\/media\/360485\/329-AppA.PDF#page=69\" target=\"_blank\">329 Appendix A<\/a> has been modified. The original can be read <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/images\/Fawcett.pdf\">here<\/a>. It&#8217;s actually a fascinating 12 page article from 1987.<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&quot;Another issue with pediatric clinical trials is that 61 percent of youth respond to the drugs, but 50 percent respond to placebo, compared with 30 percent among adults, making it hard to separate effects.&quot; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Karen Dineen Wagner &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in Child Psychiatrists Look at Specialty From Both Macro, Micro Perspectives The Placebo Effect in Clinical Trials is [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_bbp_topic_count":0,"_bbp_reply_count":0,"_bbp_total_topic_count":0,"_bbp_total_reply_count":0,"_bbp_voice_count":0,"_bbp_anonymous_reply_count":0,"_bbp_forum_subforum_count":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[5],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-66861","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-opinion"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/66861","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=66861"}],"version-history":[{"count":51,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/66861\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":66926,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/66861\/revisions\/66926"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=66861"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=66861"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/1boringoldman.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=66861"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}